Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

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Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  El Guapo on Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:51 am

Muslim pupils are being withdrawn from music lessons because some families believe learning an instrument is anti-Islamic.

The move comes despite the subject being a compulsory part of the national curriculum.

While parents have legal rights to withdraw children from religious and sex education classes, no automatic right exists to pull them out of lessons such as music.

And The Muslim Council of Britain said music lessons were likely to be unacceptable to around ten per cent of the Muslim population in Britain.

However, in certain branches of Islam - such as Sufism, which is dominant in Pakistan and India - devotional music and singing is actually central to the religion.

A BBC investigation found that in one London primary school, 20 pupils were removed from rehearsals for a Christmas musical and one five-year-old girl remains permanently withdrawn from mainstream music classes.

Some Muslims believe that playing musical instruments and singing is forbidden according to Islam.

At Herbert Morrison Primary in Lambeth, 29 per cent of children come from mainly Somalian Muslim families. Headmistress Eileen Ross said some parents 'don't want children to play musical instruments and they don't have music in their homes'.

One girl remains permanently withdrawn from the school's music curriculum, which consists of a government-backed project to learn instruments such as the violin.

'There's been about 18 or 22 children withdrawn from certain sessions, out of music class, but at the moment I just have one child who is withdrawn continually from the music curriculum,' Mrs Ross told the BBC.

'It's not part of their belief, they feel it detracts from their faith.' Ofsted and education experts raised concerns over the findings.

The Open University's Dr Diana Harris, an expert on music education and Muslims, said she had visited schools where half of the pupils were withdrawn from music lessons by their parents during Ramadan.

'Most of them really didn't know why they were withdrawing their children,' she told the BBC. 'The majority of them were doing it because they had just learned that it wasn't acceptable and one of the sources giving out that feeling was the Imams.'

A spokesman for Ofsted said: 'Music is an important part of any child or young person's education. Any examples of pupils being treated unequally would be a matter of significant concern.'



Ok, without wanting to start another war on here I simply cannot understand why some Muslims are using their faith as an excuse to withdraw their children from certain lessons?

Should the lawful requirement for children to follow the National Curriculum override certain religious beliefs?

Where is the line drawn? I think it is disgraceful this is being allowed to happen. Surely the State owes a greater duty of care to the child to ensure they recieves the same level of education as other children than any implied duty of care to pandering to parent's religious beliefs? Presumably every parent in the land has the discretion to send their child to a religion specific school if they feel this strongly? We have Catholic schools, Jewish schools and indeed Islamic schools. Why then should a parent who sends their child to a state comprehensive feel they have any moral, religious or lawful right to influence the contents of the curriculum taught to their child?

The reason we have a National Curriculum is to provide every child with a Government approved minimum level of education needed to progress through our school system.

And then looking at it from the child's point of view. Don't we owe it to every child to give them every opportunity to explore and fulfill thier potential? And what about bullying? How in the world can singling your child out in front of their peers at school be anything but detrimental?

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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  DarkLord on Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:50 am

Well why is it okay for parents to have legal rights to withdraw children from religious and sex education classes but not other classes such as Music? Let's be honest, is music gonna help you get a job outside of the music industry? No Is it something which is useful in everyday life? No Add to that the fact that the school can ban students from Music lessons or when they get to year 9 and students get "options" they can say the class is full, and it becomes a bit silly to make a fuss about parents wanting to withdraw their children from music for any reason.

I say, as long as Kids continue to take essential classes such as Maths, English & Science, the rest is a bit of a bonus really and if parents don't feel comfortable with their child doing one of the "Bonus" lessons then that should be their right, regardless of the reasoning behind it... Afterall, whatever happens with that child the parents will be held responsible.....
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  LP on Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:58 am

Dude I couldn't disagree more, ok Music isn't what you'd call an essential skill/art but you can enhance so many other areas of your education with it.

The way that a classical peice is strung together follows the same patterns that you see in chemical and mathematical equations, the way different instruments work together to produce one sound screams of diversity and everyone having a place. You learn about the history of instruments and movements which helps glue together important historical dates. Depending on the instrument you're playing you may need to expand your biology knowledge base and most importantly of all it teaches you to express yourself in a way other than verbal, building confidence and self belief. It gives people so much more than "just being able to play a tune" it can change your life in ways that you'll never realise, until some cyber frog points it out to you that is Wink
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  DarkLord on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:08 am

Oh, don't get it twisted, I loved music lessons, but some didn't.

"The way that a classical peice is strung together follows the same patterns that you see in chemical and mathematical equations"
Maybe so, but you'll learn that anyway if you already have a keen interest in science or Maths....
You'll also learn things about History if you have a keen interest in history.
But going down that road, you could say something similar about almost every subject. Sports / PE can help massively in life but every week almost every female student had a letter stating they couldn't take part due to it being "That time of the Month". No big deal there.
Drama would have the same effect as music, but was an optional subject, as is Art. Dance. Joining a school team which would teach discipline & teamwork, 2 key things which are required in everyday life......

Music is optional, and whilst it can be useful it should no more be forced on students than Drama, art or Dance. And I don't see how it matters what a parents reasoning is for not wanting their child to take music. It's their child, let them decide.
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  LP on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:23 am

Hairy muff, it is down to the parents what they want their kids to learn but I see music as important as drama, maths, science and any other lesson. Unless you're going to specialise in something they're all nessecary to give you a rounded education.

Personally I can't remember the last time I used Pythagoras Theory scratch
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  DarkLord on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:28 am

Well, yeah, Learning everything gives you more options but to be honest, I can't remember the last time I used anything taught to me in Music........ But then I didn't take that route in life to require it...... Got a "B" though cheers
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  El Guapo on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:31 am

Personally I think music is important to any child's education. I agree some children may not have any interest in the subject but a general knowledge of anything is always good IMO.

However that wasn't really what I was getting at. My gripe is why should parents even have the option to choose which parts of the national curriculum their child learns? Where is the line drawn?

Who is to say Maths, for example, is in fact more important than Music? We set a dangerous precedent by allowing parents to decide questions such as this.

The national curriculum needs to have a set standard of general education in ALL areas IMHO.


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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  dolly on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:35 am

I hated music in school but children need diversity to keep it interesting. If they did maths , english and science all day they'd be well pissed. I hated the lesson but it was a rest from the more serious stuff and we used to have a laugh in music sometimes.
To go down the line of allowing parent to take kids out of lessons they don't think they need would cause chaos in the schools, with extra teachers needed for all the kids out of their 'set' lessons having to be put into other classes and attended to.
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  DarkLord on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:37 am

why should parents even have the option to choose which parts of the national curriculum their child learns?

Because they are ultimately responsible for that child. If the child ends up getting arrested at 14 people don't blame the school or cirriculum, they blame the parents. If the child drops out of school the parents get the blame. If the child doesn't turn up at school the parents get the blame. It's their child and the parents hold full responsibility for everything that child does & for everything which happens to that child, not the curriculums, not the schools, not the teachers, not the governments but the parents. As that's the case they should have the final say on everything to do with that childs education.
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  DarkLord on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:39 am

dolly wrote:I hated music in school but children need diversity to keep it interesting. If they did maths , english and science all day they'd be well pissed. I hated the lesson but it was a rest from the more serious stuff and we used to have a laugh in music sometimes.
To go down the line of allowing parent to take kids out of lessons they don't think they need would cause chaos in the schools, with extra teachers needed for all the kids out of their 'set' lessons having to be put into other classes and attended to.

it's already down that line. A parent can legally take their child out of sex education & Religious Studies. What makes those 2 life lessons less important than music or any other lesson?? Why can parents take them out of those lessons but not others?

And with the other lessons you have schools deciding whether or not a child can take music, drama, art, double science even. Why can the school decide but not the parents?
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  LP on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:40 am

Interesting point. Parents should have the right to decide what their child is exposed to at all points in their childhood but how can they be in possession of enough facts to say that they don't need one or other of the subjects?
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  LP on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:45 am

DarkLord wrote:
dolly wrote:I hated music in school but children need diversity to keep it interesting. If they did maths , english and science all day they'd be well pissed. I hated the lesson but it was a rest from the more serious stuff and we used to have a laugh in music sometimes.
To go down the line of allowing parent to take kids out of lessons they don't think they need would cause chaos in the schools, with extra teachers needed for all the kids out of their 'set' lessons having to be put into other classes and attended to.

Personally I don't think that parents should be allowed to remove their kids from either of those two lessons either. You are just singling them out for bullying and restricting the knowledge they are entitled to. Growing up is hard enough without having to carry around your parents hang ups to.

it's already down that line. A parent can legally take their child out of sex education & Religious Studies. What makes those 2 life lessons less important than music or any other lesson?? Why can parents take them out of those lessons but not others?

And with the other lessons you have schools deciding whether or not a child can take music, drama, art, double science even. Why can the school decide but not the parents?
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  El Guapo on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:45 am

DarkLord wrote:why should parents even have the option to choose which parts of the national curriculum their child learns?

Because they are ultimately responsible for that child. If the child ends up getting arrested at 14 people don't blame the school or cirriculum, they blame the parents. If the child drops out of school the parents get the blame. If the child doesn't turn up at school the parents get the blame. It's their child and the parents hold full responsibility for everything that child does & for everything which happens to that child, not the curriculums, not the schools, not the teachers, not the governments but the parents. As that's the case they should have the final say on everything to do with that childs education.


Parents are responsible for the behaviour of their child but not necessarily their standard of education. When we talk about standards slipping and exams being "dumbed down," in this country do we blame parents or do we blame the system?

If a child leaves school with a sub standard education isn't that a failing of the State rather than the parent?

I think the State owes it to every child to ensure their interests are protected rather than the mere wishes of the parent. The old cliche of "one days these kids are going to be ruling us," rings true and surely the State owes it to society as a whole to ensure we aren't ruled by a bunch of idiots?

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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  LP on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:46 am

DarkLord wrote:
dolly wrote:I hated music in school but children need diversity to keep it interesting. If they did maths , english and science all day they'd be well pissed. I hated the lesson but it was a rest from the more serious stuff and we used to have a laugh in music sometimes.
To go down the line of allowing parent to take kids out of lessons they don't think they need would cause chaos in the schools, with extra teachers needed for all the kids out of their 'set' lessons having to be put into other classes and attended to.


it's already down that line. A parent can legally take their child out of sex education & Religious Studies. What makes those 2 life lessons less important than music or any other lesson?? Why can parents take them out of those lessons but not others?

And with the other lessons you have schools deciding whether or not a child can take music, drama, art, double science even. Why can the school decide but not the parents?

Personally I don't think that parents should be allowed to remove their kids from either of those two lessons either. You are just singling them out for bullying and restricting the knowledge they are entitled to. Growing up is hard enough without having to carry around your parents hang ups to.
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  DarkLord on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:48 am

LP wrote:Interesting point. Parents should have the right to decide what their child is exposed to at all points in their childhood but how can they be in possession of enough facts to say that they don't need one or other of the subjects?

The same way they have enough facts about which school their child should attend. When the child gets to 18, 16 in most cases, they can decide to take just about any lesson they feel they want to take. I believe that more times than not a child is withdrawn from a lesson by the request of the child. I was withdrawn from a lesson in school because I hated it & had little respect for the teacher. I told my parents, they spoke to the school & I no longer had to attend that lesson. Ironically I decide to have extra music lessons in it's place Laughing Laughing
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  Guest on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:49 am

I think schools should be allowed to teach what they see fit with very few exceptions. Would a child know what he/she has an aptitude for if he/she never tries it. Should the parents be allowed to force their views on a child?

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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  DarkLord on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:59 am

El_Guapo wrote:Parents are responsible for the behaviour of their child but not necessarily their standard of education. When we talk about standards slipping and exams being "dumbed down," in this country do we blame parents or do we blame the system?

If a child leaves school with a sub standard education isn't that a failing of the State rather than the parent?

I think the State owes it to every child to ensure their interests are protected rather than the mere wishes of the parent. The old cliche of "one days these kids are going to be ruling us," rings true and surely the State owes it to society as a whole to ensure we aren't ruled by a bunch of idiots?

Parents decide on which school they want their child to go to so how are they blameless in the standard of education they recieve? If a child leaves school with a sub standard education then I'd blame the parent. The parent should've known what the child was doing at school & should noticed that the education they were recieveing wasn't of an acceptable standard. The parent failed the child in the situation.......

We seem to be ruled by a bunch of idiots anyway. Are we just trying to make sure the next bunch of idiots who graduate from expensive top of the line schools & university's are slightly less idiotic than the current batch?
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  SAINT on Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:01 am

Wouldn't it be easier for MUSLIMS to tell the world what they do like.

Mmmm, that will be a hard one!

DISGRACE!!!!

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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  DarkLord on Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:06 am

ColinS wrote:I think schools should be allowed to teach what they see fit with very few exceptions. Would a child know what he/she has an aptitude for if he/she never tries it. Should the parents be allowed to force their views on a child?

So, let me get this straight, the school should be able to decide what they want to teach their students but a parent should not be allowed to decide what their child is taught...?? scratch scratch
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  DarkLord on Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:07 am

SAINT wrote:Wouldn't it be easier for MUSLIMS to tell the world what they do like.

Mmmm, that will be a hard one!

DISGRACE!!!!

Yeah, because every single Muslim thinks exactly the same Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  El Guapo on Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:09 am

Do parents really decide though?

Most comprehensives only accept pupils from certain areas and it's always subject to numbers. Parents therefore will often find their choices are far more limited than you'd think. Sometimes you really have no option other than to send your child to a particular school because you can't afford to go private and that school is the only one in the area who will accept them.

So surely we need to have a minimum level across the board of education in certain subjects? What children decide to learn in 6th form or college is down to them and their parents and once they reach that age the choices available are far greater. Until that time however, I still think a compulsory foundation set by by State should be enforced.

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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  El Guapo on Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:13 am

DarkLord wrote:
ColinS wrote:I think schools should be allowed to teach what they see fit with very few exceptions. Would a child know what he/she has an aptitude for if he/she never tries it. Should the parents be allowed to force their views on a child?

So, let me get this straight, the school should be able to decide what they want to teach their students but a parent should not be allowed to decide what their child is taught...?? scratch scratch

Yes and no I think is the answer to that one...

The education needed for a particular career choice happens later when the student is older. We're talking about high school kids of college kids.

Before you can think about College surely you should be expected to have a general knowledge in key areas? That's where the duty of the state comes in to make sure the child receives that. Allowing parents to control that initial level of education isn't doing the child any favours.

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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  DarkLord on Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:15 am

El_Guapo wrote:Do parents really decide though?

Most comprehensives only accept pupils from certain areas and it's always subject to numbers. Parents therefore will often find their choices are far more limited than you'd think. Sometimes you really have no option other than to send your child to a particular school because you can't afford to go private and that school is the only one in the area who will accept them.

So surely we need to have a minimum level across the board of education in certain subjects? What children decide to learn in 6th form or college is down to them and their parents and once they reach that age the choices available are far greater. Until that time however, I still think a compulsory foundation set by by State should be enforced.

But the parents still has a decision to make. Many people relocate when they are ready to enter parenthood so that their child can go to the school of choice. Across the board I think all children should learn Maths, English, Science & Social skills as well as some form of team based activity. Outside of that there's not really much else which goes across the board in life...... Music, Art, RE, Drama, TV Studies etc etc are just bonuses which can help along the way. As long as you have the basics of Maths, English & Science, you are able to interact with people & can work as part of a team you can get pretty far in life.
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  SAINT on Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:10 am

DarkLord wrote:
SAINT wrote:Wouldn't it be easier for MUSLIMS to tell the world what they do like.

Mmmm, that will be a hard one!

DISGRACE!!!!

Yeah, because every single Muslim thinks exactly the same Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Yeah, exactly my thoughts, i'm still waiting for ONE single MUSLIM to CONDEMN 9/11 & 7/7

Why is it that MUSLIMS do not protest in LONDON regarding the TERRORISTS, they seem to want to burn U.S. and othr flags!!

Explanation anyone?

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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  DarkLord on Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:18 am

SAINT wrote:Yeah, exactly my thoughts, i'm still waiting for ONE single MUSLIM to CONDEMN 9/11 & 7/7

Why is it that MUSLIMS do not protest in LONDON regarding the TERRORISTS, they seem to want to burn U.S. and othr flags!!

Explanation anyone?

My apologies. I didn't realise you'd met Every single Muslim on the planet Rolling Eyes Many Muslims have condemned 9/11 & 7/7. Maybe you just didn't read those .......
Why should they protest? I've never protested about Terrorists in London & I was born & raised there. I wonder if the Irish protested in London about Terrorist during the 80's & 90's?? scratch Can't reacalll......

Good thing I know little about you. I might start to think that everyone who shares one of your beliefs share all of them......... But that'd be fair to do right?
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