Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  DarkLord on Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:10 am

Fine, but English Lit still teaches you to read & understand the written english word.

I took both Music & History in school & learned mosre about historical musical figures in History than I did in Music during the early years of school life. The same is still true today, not an opinion, a fact that any school will tell you.

Music is compulsory only until 14 (You said as much yourself on this very thread) which is year 9. Reason being, at year 9 you decide on your optional subjects which include, amongst others, a second language, geography, History, Double Science, Drama, and Music (Look it up if you don't believe me).

But, back to the question. A parent can withdraw their child from ANY lessons at ANY time for ANY reason LEGALLY & without breaching the Education act because the education act is geared towards the school & NOT the parent (I went through it the other day Wink ) If you can find ANY part within the education act 2002 or 2005 which says the act is geared towards the parent I would love to see it because I must've missed it.

Bottom line, the parent is responsible for making the decision for the child, not the school. If the parent does not wish it, for ANY reason, then the school cannnot go ahead with it. If this is a problem for the school then they have the option to expel the child from the school, but the parent breaches NO law or act by removing their child from any lesson at school. Only the school can breach the act by not offering those mandatory lessons outlined in the act.
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  El Guapo on Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:34 am

Please cite the Act and the section that gives parents a right to withdraw their child from a particular subject that is listed as part of the compulsory National Curriculum in the Education Act (2002) on religious grounds. You won't be able to because it simply does not exist. Anywhere.

We're not talking about withdrawing your child entirely from state education or home tuition as that's a totally different issue. Any parent has the option to choose the type of education their child receives; what they do not have is the right to amend the statutory STATE education syllabus. The Education Atc (2002) exists solely to clarify the state's obligations to children in state education. (I thought I went through this the other day too...lol)

You are totally incorrect to say a parent may lawfully withdraw their child (in state education) from any lesson at any time. Truancy laws give any local authority the power to prosecute parents whom they feel are influencing trauncy, (irrespective of the reasons) and the maximum fine the courts can impose is a hefty £5000. If the fine is not paid or if the truancy continues, the magistrate can opt for a custodial sentence and also the intervention of social services.

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re music

Post  chelseaz on Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:43 am

so dark lord do you think literature,dance and art are a waste of time as well? you can learn the history of a country and people but you cannot fully understand it unless you look at its culture. it is a massive part of what a people are. name a country that dos'ent have it's own traditional music? (that's country not sect)it expresses the way of the people,their traditions and outlook on life.thank goodness my parents didn't take me out of music or any other class, my appreciation and understanding of people i have met on my travels would be so much less.i love dance,i love music,art and literature. i think every child has the right to be exposed to these things,not everyone is academic and they may well find something that will enhance their lives.
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  DarkLord on Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:50 am

Please cite the Act and the section that gives parents a right to withdraw their child from a particular subject that is listed as part of the compulsory National Curriculum in the Education Act (2002) on religious grounds. You won't be able to because it simply does not exist. Anywhere.
Not in the 2002 act, but as the 2002 act doesn't override the 1996 act (Unless where specified)....

Education act 1996 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/ukpga_19960056_en_2#pt1-ch1-pb4-l1g9)
Education in accordance with parental wishes

9 Pupils to be educated in accordance with parents' wishes In exercising or performing all their respective powers and duties under the Education Acts, the Secretary of State, local education authorities and the funding authorities shall have regard to the general principle that pupils are to be educated in accordance with the wishes of their parents, so far as that is compatible with the provision of efficient instruction and training and the avoidance of unreasonable public expenditure.

cheers cheers cheers

Religious reason or not, Child is to be educated in accordance with the wishes of the parent.

Thank you & Goodnight cheers cheers
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  DarkLord on Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:55 am

chelseaz wrote:so dark lord do you think literature,dance and art are a waste of time as well? you can learn the history of a country and people but you cannot fully understand it unless you look at its culture. it is a massive part of what a people are. name a country that dos'ent have it's own traditional music? (that's country not sect)it expresses the way of the people,their traditions and outlook on life.thank goodness my parents didn't take me out of music or any other class, my appreciation and understanding of people i have met on my travels would be so much less.i love dance,i love music,art and literature. i think every child has the right to be exposed to these things,not everyone is academic and they may well find something that will enhance their lives.

Didn't say they weren't important, I said that Music doesn't hold the importance of subjects like English(Including Lit), Maths & Science. I took Music at school, before school started, during my lunch break & after school because once options kicked in I was told the music class was full & if I wanted to do GCSE music I would have to do it in my own time, which I happily did. I love music, Studied it at University as well as dance & drama. However, there is nothing unique which can be learned in music that you cannot learn from other subjects except for playing or composing. I know because I've done & took a keen interest in it & done it during my further education........
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  El Guapo on Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:01 am

DarkLord wrote:
Please cite the Act and the section that gives parents a right to withdraw their child from a particular subject that is listed as part of the compulsory National Curriculum in the Education Act (2002) on religious grounds. You won't be able to because it simply does not exist. Anywhere.
Not in the 2002 act, but as the 2002 act doesn't override the 1996 act (Unless where specified)....

Education act 1996 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/ukpga_19960056_en_2#pt1-ch1-pb4-l1g9)
Education in accordance with parental wishes

9 Pupils to be educated in accordance with parents' wishes In exercising or performing all their respective powers and duties under the Education Acts, the Secretary of State, local education authorities and the funding authorities shall have regard to the general principle that pupils are to be educated in accordance with the wishes of their parents, so far as that is compatible with the provision of efficient instruction and training and the avoidance of unreasonable public expenditure.

cheers cheers cheers

Religious reason or not, Child is to be educated in accordance with the wishes of the parent.

Thank you & Goodnight cheers cheers


Yeh...in other words the parent can choose whether to teach their child at home, privately or...wait for it....wait for it....pass the responsibility on to THE STATE!

The other telling sentence is so far as that is compatible with the provision of efficient instruction and training. What do you think this part means? lol

If your interpretation was the correct trauncy laws would not be enforceable as every parent that was prosecuted would simply use the Act you cite as a valid defence Very Happy

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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  DarkLord on Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:09 am

No, because the act doesn't apply to any educational institution not run by the state. If the child is in the school then they are not truant.

so far as that is compatible with the provision of efficient instruction and training.
It doesn't say anywhere "So far as is compatible with the National Curriculum". As long as the child is in school being educated, dropping one lesson which becomes non compulsory at 14 is not going to be a problem.

Now your turn Very Happy Cite the part of the act which says that the wishes of the parent are to be ignored & the parent does not have the right to remove the child from a music lesson.
In your own time Laughing

Give it up man. This one's mine! Twisted Evil Laughing
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  El Guapo on Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:56 am

DarkLord wrote:No, because the act doesn't apply to any educational institution not run by the state. If the child is in the school then they are not truant.

so far as that is compatible with the provision of efficient instruction and training.
It doesn't say anywhere "So far as is compatible with the National Curriculum". As long as the child is in school being educated, dropping one lesson which becomes non compulsory at 14 is not going to be a problem.

Now your turn Very Happy Cite the part of the act which says that the wishes of the parent are to be ignored & the parent does not have the right to remove the child from a music lesson.
In your own time Laughing

Give it up man. This one's mine! Twisted Evil Laughing

lmao

Ok..(sigh..)

Read this:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents/Schoolslearninganddevelopment/ExamsTestsAndTheCurriculum/DG_10013877

Please note the word "compulsory." This means non optional. Non optional means the wishes of the parents do not override the statutory requirement otherwise it would say Optional to the Parent wouldn't it? It's really not a difficult one to grasp...

Now lets look at another link:

http://curriculum.qcda.gov.uk/key-stages-3-and-4/subjects/index.aspx

This link lists the subjects listed in the Education Act (2002) as compulsory.

Can you please explain why a statute would list something that, according to you is not compulsory, as being compulsory?

Now you said:

"so far as that is compatible with the provision of efficient instruction and training.
It doesn't say anywhere "So far as is compatible with the National Curriculum"."

Well of course it doesn't. Consider the meaning of what you are reading. The paragraph gives an option to withdraw a child so far as is compatible with the provision of efficient instruction and training. This means you cannot do it unless you make alternative adequate provisions for efficient instruction and training in the area you are withdrawing the child from.

Parents have a lawful right to withdraw their child from RE only.

Here's another link, this time from an Islamic site which supports what I say:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/uk-muslims-withdrawing-children-from-music-classes-because-theyre-un-islamic.html

"While parents have legal rights to withdraw children from religious and sex education classes, no automatic right exists to pull them out of subjects such as music."

So, in conclusion. I don't think parents have the right to withdraw their child from Music on religious grounds. Muslims themselves do not believe they have an automatic right to withdraw their child from Music on religious grounds. Statutory Law does not provide for parents to withdraw their child on religious grounds but...despite all this...







You still think you are right?!




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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  DarkLord on Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:21 am

Grrrrr..... Mad I hate you sometimes! Laughing

Okay, well let's see what we have learned here.

1) There is no automatic right for a parent to withdraw their child from any subject within a state run school, with the exception of Sex Education & Religious Education (Yes, I'll concede on this point)

2) There is no legislation in place which prohibits a parent withdrawing their child from any one particular subject within a state run school (I assume you will concede on this point as neither of us have been able to find this specific piece of legislation in any of the acts) But does have the full legal right to withdraw their child from the school, and in turn, the national curriculum altogether.

3) The National Curriculum is an outline of what state run schools will be teaching & does not apply to any Non state run educational establishment including home schooling and is geared towards the school, not the parent to follow. This is to ensure that all state run schools are teaching the same subjects, in the same manner, at the same time (This is outlined within the education acts)

4) In a state run school a child must be educated in accordance with the wishes of the parent so far as that is compatible with the provision of efficient instruction and training and the avoidance of unreasonable public expenditure. (Note that it does not say in accordance with the national curriculum)



So, in conclusion, it would appear that as long as it is okay'd with the head teacher of the school, Local Education authorities & does not involve unreasonable cost, a parent CAN withdraw their child from a subject of the national curriculum for pretty much any reason. Proven, as it has happened before & will surely happen again. May the reason be religious or otherwise, although there is nothing to give a parent the automatic right (Apart from the parent having full legal responsibility of the child & everything that child does)to withdraw a child from one subject whilst keeping them in the same state run school, there is nothing specifically stopping them from doing so as long as the school agrees.

I do wonder though, how much of a stir this would be causing if the parent & child in question were English Born & Bred and religion wasn't brought into the equation.

From my point of view, the reasoning is neither here nor there. A totally rigid policy on education or just about anything else would not work. If state run schools were to be as rigid as that then I'm sure we would see a dramatic rise in home & independent schooling to go along with a massive decline in state schooling. We're not all the same so common sense & flexibility of the policy have to exist, which clearly they do.

The request to remove the child from 1 subject clearly isn't unreasonable and would be more headache than it's worth for the school, the parent and most importantly the child, to reject the request for the sake of holding a stubborn stance. It's not something new and is not something unique to Muslims to withdraw a child from a subject & is something that can be done & has nothing to prohibit such an action as long as it is taken through the correct channels.

So, the education act neither specifically allows nor specifically prohibits a child in a state run school not following one specific subject at the request of the parent, whatever the reason may be.

That makes both of us correct & incorrect at the same time. Would you not agree?
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Re: Why are Muslim parents withdrawing their kids from music lessons?

Post  El Guapo on Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:02 am

lol

Yeh I'm prepared to meet you halfway...

It does seem a bit of a grey area doesn't it? I'm still personally against withdrawing kids from Music on religious grounds however. I appreciate and respect the reasons behind it but I can't help but think the child is missing out.

Ok, music might not be the most "important," subject in the world but IMO it is beneficial to the development as a whole of the child. This is nothing more enjoyable than mindlessly banging away on drums with your mates last thing on a Friday afternoon while the teacher screams at you to stop and pay attention! lol (Ahhh happy memories!)

Is this enough of a reason to forbid withdrawing a child from the subject? I have a horrible tendancy to look at things in black and white which is probably a result of years of being in my particular job. In law there is no flexibility. We either have rules that are enforced across the board or we do not. My gripe with religion, any kind of religion, is that I find it controlling and oppressive. Incidents like this serve only to reinforce my prejudices against the concept of religion as a whole and I suppose that's really the only reason I'm so against the idea.

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errr!

Post  chelseaz on Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:56 am

ooohhhh!!! sorry boys, nodded off there...i'm afraid your both far to intelligent and deep for me,think i'll just chill out with some mozart......
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