Burkhas and their acceptance into Western society

My personal view is that is a person is in full time employment, pays all their taxes and isn't committing any crimes; I couldn't give a shit what clothes they wear and that includes the Burkha. I certainly don't think France is doing the right thing by imposing a blanket ban as it will only result in resentment and feelings of inequality.

However...

I do think those that wear the Burkha need to understand a few things...

This is not a country where a person can publically hide their face at all times. There are times when the veil must be removed and in return for British hospitality those who wear it must be prepared to remove it when asked.

Equality stretches both ways. It is equal for the same rules to apply to all irrespective of religion. If a Christian cannot enter a bank with a motorcycle helmet why is a muslim allowed to enter with a veil?

The simple crux of the matter is we have issues of security in the UK. If these security measures requires you to compromise your beliefs from time to time then this is the cost of living in a Western society. Such things must be considered and accepted by those who wear a Burkha before seeking citizenship rather than being discovered and then complained about.

Discuss.

I also think they show a lack of respect for English/British values,and i always think you need to see the persons face that you are talking to,you wouldn't have a conversation with your back turned to them! I'm not ignorant as regards to there religion, just think they should respect to be respected. sorry, that's my view don't want to upset anyone on my first day!

I told you RW had a balanced way of putting things!!

Nowhere in the koran does it say a females face should be covered, I think they choose to wear the burka as a sign of rebeling against the western ways, they choose not to fit in with society, their outcasts and i'll treat them as such .

I see the burqa as a sign of oppression, woman in some Islamic countries are beaten for showing a bit of arm. It is not a Religious requirement, therefore a ban in the western world should not be seen as antagonistic. The teacher who went for an Interview without the burqa, was interviewed by men etc. Her first day of teaching, she came to school wearing a burqa! When the school complained, she tried to sue the School, thank god she lost her case. I hate the oppressive garment and would like to see it totally banned in all Western countries.

RW-FAN wrote:I also think they show a lack of respect for English/British values,and i always think you need to see the persons face that you are talking to,you wouldn't have a conversation with your back turned to them! I'm not ignorant as regards to there religion, just think they should respect to be respected. sorry, that's my view don't want to upset anyone on my first day!

Good point....I wouldn't talk to my neighbour through the letter box or with a bag on my head !!! it's bad manners in this country ...

I personally think it should be ban, Belgium and France have the right idea, let's hope.

Seems like this new government have no BALLS, WTF does if banning the BURKA mean by not being Britishness?

Another government who will not listen to the very people who put them in power, a survey showed that over 90% of the English people voted to ban the BURKA, so whatever happened to the government statement of handing power back to the people.

This coalition shower of shit needs to start listening or the likes of the BNP will gain more votes!

1) Telling people what they can't wear is just as oppressive as telling people what they can wear. How can any country take the moral high ground if they bring in this law?

2) If the Burkha should be banned because women are "Forced" to wear it by their husbands, does that also mean that Long skirts and trousers for women should be banned? There are plenty of Western husbands out there who force their wives not to wear short skirts.... Should non low cut tops be banned? Again, plenty Western husbands do not allow their wives to wear these...... How's about a ban on not wearing make-up? Again, plenty western men out there who force their women not to wear make-up......

3) Will Halloween be affected by this? Will I be allowed to wear a mask? Balaclava? or should this be extended to include all face coverings?

4)Wearing the Burkha is largly a choice of the women, just like some western women decide to no longer dress "Slutty" or in revealing outfits once they are settled in a relationship. Yes, it is forced upon some, but so is dressing less revealingly.....

5) if you have to see someone to have a conversation with them why are you a member of a discussion forum? Or do you think I'm really the Grim Reaper?

Bottom line for me is, if they wanna wear it then let them wear it. Whilst in a bank, Airport or something like that, just as motorcyclists have to do with their helmet, these women should be asked to reveal their faces. The point of living in a free country is simply if I want to wear nothing but a pair of speedos on a hot day then I can. If I wanna cover my body from top to toe then I can. How are we a "Free society" if people are not free to simply choose what they do or don't wear?

I knida agree and it's pretty much what I said in my OP.

I don't like the Burkha personally. I don't think it does the people who choose to wear it any favours and it only serves to often attract the wrong kind of attention.

However, lots of items of clothing are anathema to lots of different people. As well as hating the Burkha I also hate seeing 13 year old girls in hotpants or miniskirts. Again I don't think it does the people who choose to wear them any favours and it only serves to often attract the wrong kind of attention....But what right do I have to tell people what to wear?

My ONLY condition is that when it comes to matters of security we are ALL equal. In certain situations the people wearing these Burkhas MUST be prepared to take them off without shouting discrimination every five frickin minutes.

The ironic thing about all this is that more often that not when the Burkha IS removed and you see what an ugly mug lies underneath you're usually tempted to ask the person to put the damn thing back on again...

Don't flatter yourselves. You DON'T need to hide your face to prevent men lusting after you....lol

I agree. Any person who kicked up a fuss about showing their face in a bank, airport etc should be treated with suspicion. If I remember correctly, the only thing religion says they should keep covered is their hair........

DarkLord wrote:

I agree. Any person who kicked up a fuss about showing their face in a bank, airport etc should be treated with suspicion. If I remember correctly, the only thing religion says they should keep covered is their hair........

Hi DL

In my line of work the burkha has often been a very big problem. For every client I take on I am required, by law, to check their identity. How do I do this if a person won't show their face?

It's also pretty insulting to me for them to insinuate that as soon as they uncover their face I'm going to jump over the table and start ravishing them!!

FFS...I just want their money!! lol

So if you have a hit and run accident, who would own up to driving the car, at the end of the day any member of the family could be driving this vehicle whether they have a licence or not.

In that case, shouldn't hoody's, balaclava's, crash helmets etc... also be allowed to be worn where the BURKA'S are allowed?


That would include supermarkets, banks, petrol garages, shops etc....Mmmm, DOUBT it very much!! so why one rule for the peace loving religion called ISLAM, yeah right!! and another rule for the rest of the nation?


Why is it Turkey which is an ISLAMIC country has also banned the Burka, WTF? Good for them, just goes to show what another SHOWER of SHIT we also have in power, GUTLESS JELLYFISH nation this country is! FFS grow a pair, 96% of a survey stated to ban the BURKA, so why don't this new government listen to it's people? Fucking shameful country this is!!


Why can't the do-gooders of the nation see what the rest of us can?

For security reasons, this item of clothing by hiding the face should be banned! simple!

If people do not like the traditions and values this country has, then why do they stay here? they have the choice.

All I hear is how MUSLIMS LOATHE this country, hate westerners and the rest of the world yet they want to live here, they do NOT intergrate, they hate everone and everything, just the other day it was stated on the news that football is anti-Islamic, so where the FUCK does it state that in the TERRORIST book called the QURAN? I didn't even know football had been invented in JESUS times, PMSL!!!!

Wouldn't it be easier for MUSLIMS to state on a postage stamp size bit of paper what they do like?

DarkLord wrote:1) Telling people what they can't wear is just as oppressive as telling people what they can wear. How can any country take the moral high ground if they bring in this law?

2) If the Burkha should be banned because women are "Forced" to wear it by their husbands, does that also mean that Long skirts and trousers for women should be banned? There are plenty of Western husbands out there who force their wives not to wear short skirts.... Should non low cut tops be banned? Again, plenty Western husbands do not allow their wives to wear these...... How's about a ban on not wearing make-up? Again, plenty western men out there who force their women not to wear make-up......

3) Will Halloween be affected by this? Will I be allowed to wear a mask? Balaclava? or should this be extended to include all face coverings?

4)Wearing the Burkha is largly a choice of the women, just like some western women decide to no longer dress "Slutty" or in revealing outfits once they are settled in a relationship. Yes, it is forced upon some, but so is dressing less revealingly.....

5) if you have to see someone to have a conversation with them why are you a member of a discussion forum? Or do you think I'm really the Grim Reaper?

Bottom line for me is, if they wanna wear it then let them wear it. Whilst in a bank, Airport or something like that, just as motorcyclists have to do with their helmet, these women should be asked to reveal their faces. The point of living in a free country is simply if I want to wear nothing but a pair of speedos on a hot day then I can. If I wanna cover my body from top to toe then I can. How are we a "Free society" if people are not free to simply choose what they do or don't wear?

DL, yes, there are plenty of western men who tell their women not to wear short / mini skirts, but they don't use this BULLSHIT excuse as RELIGOUS reasons, many Muslims women are trying to prove a pointless point, surely you can see this DL.

So let me get this right, so if your child / children was taught by a teacher wearing a Burka, it wouldn't bother you?

Surely by teaching very young children they would need also to learn facial expressions as part of growing up and would be a very important thing to learn, what about a deaf person, how the fuck are they supposed to lip read?

What about the Muslim man who tried escaping his terrorist activity at an airport, what about on driving licences and passports, and you are trying to educate the west with this BULLSHIT excuse for ISLAM? Mmmm, just a few examples and opinions of many DL which doesn't look favourable for the BURKA.

Just a thought!

SAINT wrote:So if you have a hit and run accident, who would own up to driving the car, at the end of the day any member of the family could be driving this vehicle whether they have a licence or not.

In that case, shouldn't hoody's, balaclava's, crash helmets etc... also be allowed to be worn where the BURKA'S are allowed?


That would include supermarkets, banks, petrol garages, shops etc....Mmmm, DOUBT it very much!! so why one rule for the peace loving religion called ISLAM, yeah right!! and another rule for the rest of the nation?


Why is it Turkey which is an ISLAMIC country has also banned the Burka, WTF? Good for them, just goes to show what another SHOWER of SHIT we also have in power, GUTLESS JELLYFISH nation this country is! FFS grow a pair, 96% of a survey stated to ban the BURKA, so why don't this new government listen to it's people? Fucking shameful country this is!!


Why can't the do-gooders of the nation see what the rest of us can?

For security reasons, this item of clothing by hiding the face should be banned! simple!

If people do not like the traditions and values this country has, then why do they stay here? they have the choice.

All I hear is how MUSLIMS LOATHE this country, hate westerners and the rest of the world yet they want to live here, they do NOT intergrate, they hate everone and everything, just the other day it was stated on the news that football is anti-Islamic, so where the FUCK does it state that in the TERRORIST book called the QURAN? I didn't even know football had been invented in JESUS times, PMSL!!!!

Wouldn't it be easier for MUSLIMS to state on a postage stamp size bit of paper what they do like?

If it's a hit and run the chances are nobody is going to own up to driving the vehicle anyway are they? Otherwise why hit and run? Surely they would stop?

Like I said...I think when it comes to security we should all be treated equal. If somebody asks you to remove a burkha there should be no lawful grounds upon which to refuse. I think we all agree on this point don't we?

For all other instances I really don't have any objection. WTF do I care if somebody I don't know hides their face? How does it impact on my life?

If somebody wants to wear a crash helmet or a balaclava as they walk down the street then as far as I know there's no law against it is there?

Freedom is not about removing choices but allowing people to make those choices isn't it?

I hink the easy answer to this is to simply have a law whereby any owner of any public place has the right to refuse entry or admission to anybody covering their face. Thing is though...we already HAVE this law in place.

What people need to move away from is being frightened to ask people to remove the veil for fear of cries of discrimination and being too frightend to simply refuse entry or admission to any particular place when that request is refused.

I'm with Daz on this one. I hate the bloody things, they are ugly and they ARE a sign of oppressed woman. You can't have a conversation with a person who isn't showing their face, body language and facial expression is very important when having a conversation.

I think they wear them as a 'Up Yours' to the western world.

BAN THE BURKA!!!!

SAINT wrote:DL, yes, there are plenty of western men who tell their women not to wear short / mini skirts, but they don't use this BULLSHIT excuse as RELIGOUS reasons, many Muslims women are trying to prove a pointless point, surely you can see this DL.

What does the reason matter? The point is that men "forcing" women to or not to wear a certain item of clothing is NOT unique to the religion of Islam. There are plenty of Muslim men who would actually prefer their wives DIDN'T wear a burkha. There are plenty of Muslim women who make the decision themselves to wear a burkha. And the point muslim women are trying to prove is hardly pointless. The point is that EVERYONE should be free to wear whatever the hell they like. I'm sure you'd be hard pressed to find a decent person in this country who would refuse to remove a face covering in a Bank or Airport. Muslim or Not......

SAINT wrote:So let me get this right, so if your child / children was taught by a teacher wearing a Burka, it wouldn't bother you?

Why should I care what the teacher wears if they are good at teaching my children the values & subjects which I feel they need to be taught? In communication there is nothing which is more important than Eye contact & Body language. I'd be more annoyed if a teacher wore sunglasses whilst teaching my children as I feel eye contact is highly important in communication & showing respect.

SAINT wrote:Surely by teaching very young children they would need also to learn facial expressions as part of growing up and would be a very important thing to learn, what about a deaf person, how the fuck are they supposed to lip read?

Facial impressions are not very important when communicating with people. There are people in the world, in this very country, who cannot change their facial expression and are often thought to be taking the piss when they are not. If these people were able to hide their facial expression life would be a hell of a lot easier for them, as would communicating with people.
Deaf people generally know sign language, something I intend to teach my children and if any of the deaf people I know saw that previous comment they wouldn't thank you for it. Most deaf people also have the ability to read & would probably prefer that to someone talking to them very slowly & treating them as little more than an idiot so that they can read your lips.....

SAINT wrote:What about the Muslim man who tried escaping his terrorist activity at an airport, what about on driving licences and passports, and you are trying to educate the west with this BULLSHIT excuse for ISLAM? Mmmm, just a few examples and opinions of many DL which doesn't look favourable for the BURKA.

Just a thought!

Oh please! How many examples do you want of INDIGENOUS ENGLISH people who have worn balaclavas, crash helmets, dust masks, a pair of tights for Pete’s sake! or used other methods to cover their face when committing a crime, including little more than their hand? Even if the Burkha was banned, what's to stop them using something else to cover their face? Don't be so short sighted. As for passports & driving licences, I know people who have had their photo returned because it didn't meet the criteria. I had my passport photo returned because I was smiling! If they are allowed to cover their faces in their passport photo then they can easily be refused entry into any country on those grounds.

As I've said, in Airports, Banks etc, I believe that at the very least EVERY SINGLE PERSON should be made to show their face, even if only to employees of the establishment or the police. Outside of that I don't see it as a requirement. For me, as long as I can look you in the eye whilst we are talking then I'm a happy bunny. And to be honest I don't need to look someone in the eye to have a great conversation with them & even form a bond of some kind. I mean, are we all not doing that right now?

EarthsAngel wrote:I'm with Daz on this one. I hate the bloody things, they are ugly and they ARE a sign of oppressed woman. You can't have a conversation with a person who isn't showing their face, body language and facial expression is very important when having a conversation.

I think they wear them as a 'Up Yours' to the western world.

BAN THE BURKA!!!!

Yes, maybe they are a sign of SOME oppressed women, but banning it is a sign of oppression against ALL men & women of that nation. Banning the Burkha impacts me even though I don't wear one, because what will be next? Where is the line drawn? First we're not allowed to wear Burkha's. Next go trainers unless you are an athelete and can prove they are required, because they help you run away better than shoes..... Then Caps, because CCTV can't see your face and with it goes the Hoodie, balaclava, dust mask, unless you are registered to be wearing it in a certain place at a certain time. It sounds ridiculous & far fetched but with a blanket ban on Burkha's what is to stop them banning other things for "Secruity Reasons"?
On top of that, more banks have been robbed with Balaclava's & crash helmets on than they have been with Burkha's on..... More secruity firms have been robbed whilst the criminals were wearing Balaclava's or Crash Helmets than those wearing Burkha's..... Yet I can wear those walking down the road without any headache from anyone......

Bottom line is, by supporting this ban you are supporting oppression on a national scale. If telling someone what they HAVE to wear is oppressive then telling someone what they must NOT wear has to also be oppressive. Or is it okay for a man to tell his wife that she CANNOT wear a short skirt........? Is that not oppressive also?

Even if it is an "Up yours" to the Western World, the best "Up yours" we can give back is "You don't scare us so wear it as much as you like because I couldn't give a flying rat's arse what you look like..... That and you look like every other arab women I've ever seen so I can't really tell the differnce from one to the other anyway, so what the hell do I care. All of you cover you face or none of you do it. Still can't tell you apart so why care?!"

We are a proud, free country of mostly good decent people from all corners of the globe. As the indigenous population of this country we feel that we should be treated, at the very least, the same as those of other shores are when they arrive here. We feel that those who claim to "Hate" these shores should leave as soon as possible, may you be immigrant, indigenous, or of such descent. This country fought tooth and nail against oppression, to this very day the fight continues, & we should be Damned ashamed of ourselves the day we allow this to become an oppressive nations. The Heroes of this land who fought for this country would turn in their graves at the way the indigenous population are treated, but those same heroes would turn also if they knew that everything they had fought against, everything they had fought to keep away from these shores was about to make it's home within the hearts of the very people they gave their lives to protect......

Hate them or not, if nothing else, banning them is an insult to the history of this nation & everything it has fought for.

DarkLord wrote:

SAINT wrote:DL, yes, there are plenty of western men who tell their women not to wear short / mini skirts, but they don't use this BULLSHIT excuse as RELIGOUS reasons, many Muslims women are trying to prove a pointless point, surely you can see this DL.

What does the reason matter? The point is that men "forcing" women to or not to wear a certain item of clothing is NOT unique to the religion of Islam. There are plenty of Muslim men who would actually prefer their wives DIDN'T wear a burkha. There are plenty of Muslim women who make the decision themselves to wear a burkha. And the point muslim women are trying to prove is hardly pointless. The point is that EVERYONE should be free to wear whatever the hell they like. I'm sure you'd be hard pressed to find a decent person in this country who would refuse to remove a face covering in a Bank or Airport. Muslim or Not......

SAINT wrote:So let me get this right, so if your child / children was taught by a teacher wearing a Burka, it wouldn't bother you?

Why should I care what the teacher wears if they are good at teaching my children the values & subjects which I feel they need to be taught? In communication there is nothing which is more important than Eye contact & Body language. I'd be more annoyed if a teacher wore sunglasses whilst teaching my children as I feel eye contact is highly important in communication & showing respect.

SAINT wrote:Surely by teaching very young children they would need also to learn facial expressions as part of growing up and would be a very important thing to learn, what about a deaf person, how the fuck are they supposed to lip read?

Facial impressions are not very important when communicating with people. There are people in the world, in this very country, who cannot change their facial expression and are often thought to be taking the piss when they are not. If these people were able to hide their facial expression life would be a hell of a lot easier for them, as would communicating with people.
Deaf people generally know sign language, something I intend to teach my children and if any of the deaf people I know saw that previous comment they wouldn't thank you for it. Most deaf people also have the ability to read & would probably prefer that to someone talking to them very slowly & treating them as little more than an idiot so that they can read your lips.....

SAINT wrote:What about the Muslim man who tried escaping his terrorist activity at an airport, what about on driving licences and passports, and you are trying to educate the west with this BULLSHIT excuse for ISLAM? Mmmm, just a few examples and opinions of many DL which doesn't look favourable for the BURKA.

Just a thought!

Oh please! How many examples do you want of INDIGENOUS ENGLISH people who have worn balaclavas, crash helmets, dust masks, a pair of tights for Pete’s sake! or used other methods to cover their face when committing a crime, including little more than their hand? Even if the Burkha was banned, what's to stop them using something else to cover their face? Don't be so short sighted. As for passports & driving licences, I know people who have had their photo returned because it didn't meet the criteria. I had my passport photo returned because I was smiling! If they are allowed to cover their faces in their passport photo then they can easily be refused entry into any country on those grounds.

As I've said, in Airports, Banks etc, I believe that at the very least EVERY SINGLE PERSON should be made to show their face, even if only to employees of the establishment or the police. Outside of that I don't see it as a requirement. For me, as long as I can look you in the eye whilst we are talking then I'm a happy bunny. And to be honest I don't need to look someone in the eye to have a great conversation with them & even form a bond of some kind. I mean, are we all not doing that right now?

So what does that tell you with a 96% public vote on banning the burka which took place days ago, DL I think you are living in the wrong country, perhaps Dubai, Afghanistan would suit you better, that way you can be more happy watching women in burka's all day long!

I'm only giving my opinion of what the majority of the country want to BAN the BURKA!

Sorry you are in the minority of loving such out dated FILTHY clothing!

Saint, please point out where I've stated that I enjoy seeing women in the Burkha all day long? Although Dubai is a lovely place to visit. Not too sure about Afghanistan, it's a little noisy over there for my liking right now

And a 96% majority of what? The 2,000 people surveyed? Or maybe it was 5,000. London, which is one city in this country, has a higher population than that. 96% of a fraction of the population of this country is hardly a public majority

I'm just sorry that you are in the minority of such out of date thinking. Thought we English had long since moved on from those days......

DarkLord wrote: Saint, please point out where I've stated that I enjoy seeing women in the Burkha all day long? Although Dubai is a lovely place to visit. Not too sure about Afghanistan, it's a little noisy over there for my liking right now

And a 96% majority of what? The 2,000 people surveyed? Or maybe it was 5,000. London, which is one city in this country, has a higher population than that. 96% of a fraction of the population of this country is hardly a public majority

I'm just sorry that you are in the minority of such out of date thinking. Thought we English had long since moved on from those days......

DL, Considering you have no bad word against the BURKA, one would imagine that you absolutely love them, at the end of the day DL, it's nothing to do with religion which many MUSLIMS seem to think, it's not in the QURAN, so, if these MUSLIMS are loving wearing such vile rags, then why don't they go to a more appropriate country which allows nothing but BURKA'S! Millions of people oppose this yet still nothing is done!

SAINT wrote:DL, Considering you have no bad word against the BURKA, one would imagine that you absolutely love them, at the end of the day DL, it's nothing to do with religion which many MUSLIMS seem to think, it's not in the QURAN, so, if these MUSLIMS are loving wearing such vile rags, then why don't they go to a more appropriate country which allows nothing but BURKA'S! Millions of people oppose this yet still nothing is done!

I've not had a bad word against murderers, rapists or thieves either & neither have you..... Does that mean we both love these people? I don't love them & I don't hate them. I think if someone wants to wear it then that's their choice. I've said it has little to do with religion so rehashing that bit of information was pretty useless.
The reason why they don't go somewhere where only this item of clothing is allowed is because they don't have to. And where are you getting your statistics from? Yesterday it was 96% of the population & now it’s Millions of people……. I'd be interested to see this "Millions of people" survey on the Burkha. I'd bank that the majority of people couldn't care less.

Just out of interest, what is it you have against this piece of cloth?

DarkLord wrote:

SAINT wrote:DL, Considering you have no bad word against the BURKA, one would imagine that you absolutely love them, at the end of the day DL, it's nothing to do with religion which many MUSLIMS seem to think, it's not in the QURAN, so, if these MUSLIMS are loving wearing such vile rags, then why don't they go to a more appropriate country which allows nothing but BURKA'S! Millions of people oppose this yet still nothing is done!

I've not had a bad word against murderers, rapists or thieves either & neither have you..... Does that mean we both love these people? I don't love them & I don't hate them. I think if someone wants to wear it then that's their choice. I've said it has little to do with religion so rehashing that bit of information was pretty useless.
The reason why they don't go somewhere where only this item of clothing is allowed is because they don't have to. And where are you getting your statistics from? Yesterday it was 96% of the population & now it’s Millions of people……. I'd be interested to see this "Millions of people" survey on the Burkha. I'd bank that the majority of people couldn't care less.

Just out of interest, what is it you have against this piece of cloth?

Trust me DL, it's millions of the ENGLISH people, trust me!

Okay, roughly 51 million people living in England at the moment. Of these 51 Million approximately 42.7 million are classed as "White British" (Which would also double as "Indigenous"). Are you trying to say that at least 21.4 million of these people are voting against it (Which would be more than 50%) or if we're to follow the 96% of the indigenous population theory, are you saying that somewhere in the region of 40.9 Million people are voting to oppose this? If this is the case it shouldn't be a problem for you to point me in the direction of this massive poll.....

And, as you didn't answer the question I'll ask it again, what exactly is it that you have against this piece of cloth?

The Burka should be banned!............So should the Hoodie!!!